From:
"Mike Teague" <yngwie@triax.com>
Sent: 10/28/2000 4:55:47 PM
To:
"gpsstash" <gpsstash@egroups.com>
Cc:
Bcc:
Subject:

And some more.... Sierra Club messages


---------- Forwarded Message ----------

From: "Chapter, Group and Section Outing Leader Discussion List",
INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
TO: (unknown), INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
DATE: 10/27/2000 8:41 PM

RE: Re: Geostashing


Well, many of the registers on peaks in the Sierra Nevada have been there
over fifty years, which makes them historical objects. The cast aluminum
register boxes have been stolen from many of the more popular peaks. Many
of them were put up during the twenties and thirties. During WW II the
casting model or die (whatever those things are called) was lost. Cabins
and other such artifacts that have been in place for more than fifty years
are allowed to remain as historical whatevers under federal legislation.
Now if the GPS stashers enter incorrect coordinates and the object can stay
out there for five decades, it's safe. Then it might become a crime to
remove it without permission.
--cal french

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

From: "Chapter, Group and Section Outing Leader Discussion List",
INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
TO: (unknown), INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
DATE: 10/27/2000 4:51 PM

RE: Geostashing


Hi all,

Thanks Owen, I can think of some peakbaggers who merit stashing!

Seriously, what's the difference between the geostashing program outlined in
the Times article and leaving a register on top of a peak, so that
successful climbers can sign in?

Ann Kramer


---------- Forwarded Message ----------

From: "Chapter, Group and Section Outing Leader Discussion List",
INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
TO: (unknown), INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
DATE: 10/27/2000 9:14 PM

RE: Re: Geocaching


Hi Matt,

Thanks for writing to me. First, I'd like to know who gave you my name, as
I don't think I've communicated with you previously. Since you've written
to me personally, I'll send you a personal reply. This in no way reflects
the official position of the environmental/outdoors organizations I
volunteer with. I will send a copy of my reply to our list.

I fully appreciate what you say, and I have no problem with the game as you
set it out in your email. I also have seen sports such as this expand in
popularity and commercially as a fad in a way that the first participants
never imagined.

The combination of commercialism, along with easy purchase of these GPS
units, which are becoming more and more popular for activities other than
pure hiking, camping, human-powered boating and climbing have the potential
to make this a fad sport among those who do not share your concerns about
environmental/ecological sensitivity.

I'm actually quite sympathetic to those who participated in this when
selective availability was first disabled by the US Government, as a fun way
to experiment with a new dimension of their GPS units. I would easily have
done the same thing, if it were me.

My concern is whether the geocoaching people will proactively take the
initiative to enforce these philosophical principals and standards you refer
to below. I've seen what's happened in the mountain biking community here
in the East, and, frankly, they blatantly break the rules and encourage
erosion of hiking trails in environmentally sensitive areas (I've seen an
unconcerned, organized group with 20 or more bikers pass by on an off-limits
trail in the Hudson Highlands while working with a trail maintenance crew
installing stepping stones to protect a wet area from erosion, when the
biking trail was only a few miles away!). I've also witnessed the
commercial expansion of ski areas in the East during the past 45 years in a
way that has moved from sustainable low-cost family sport to unsustainable
sprawl and environmentally inappropriate real estate development, along with
environmentally damaging expansion or proposed expansion of the ski areas.

I'd be interested to know whether you and your organization would be willing
to take this extra step to safeguard your sport into the future!

Regards,

Don Pachner

-----Original Message-----
From: M O [mailto:moab1234@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 8:20 PM
To: donp@bestweb.net
Subject: Geocaching


Hi Don,

My name is Matt O'Brien, and I am an avid outdoors
person who happens to be involved in the activity of
Geocaching. I have recently become aware of concerns
you and other members of your organization have over
this new form of recreation and thought I'd provide
you with the perspective of someone who is involved.

Most, if not all of those involved in the activity are
avid outdoors folk who enjoy using our GPS units in
the field. We use them while camping, hiking,
climbing, boating, etc. and find them, along with
proper use of a compass, very useful. And, after
having paid a small fortune for the units (typically
between $150-$400 for a decent handheld model), we are
always looking for new applications for them.

Along came President Clinton's directive to cease
selective availability which enabled our units to
become much more precise than they had been
previously, which in turn, inspired someone to come up
with this high-tech game of hide & seek. And, as
George Mallory repied when asked why he wanted to
climb Mt. Everest, we are inspired to search out these
hidden treasures "because they are there", and because
it gives us yet another reason to visit the beautiful
outdoors.

As a fellow outdoorsman, I understand your concerns
that items placed in the forest (or anywhere), and/or
those who search them out could be detrimental to
potentially fragile ecosystems. And you are correct.
But, I am genuinely concerned that many have been, and
continue to, form preconceived notions of who we are
and what we do, based solely on what they read in the
article or on what they are reading on your bulletin
boards.

Those of us involved have and continue to discuss
issues regarding where and how we place our stashes,
their contents, and potential for envirnmental damage
by the stash or those who seek to locate it. We are
well aware of the issues and are proactive in taking
steps to avoid environemtental or ecological problems.
Many stashes are located within short walking distance
of parking, and along well travelled hiking routes.
The notion that we are blazing trails or bushwhacking
is ill conceived and incorrect. There are some stashes
placed in fairly remote locations, but these too are
along popular hiking routes. Still others are located
within urban boundaries altogether.

In response to concerns that our stashes are 'litter',
I can only say that litter is defined as something
that has been discarded. Our stashes are not
discarded, rather we fully intend them to be found and
we, as owners of a stash, revisit them on occsion to
ensure their integrity is maintained and neither they,
nor their contents pose any threat to their
surroundings. Most of us include a note which
describes the object, it's purpose and it's contents.
We also typically include a statement to the effect
that we will come and remove the stash if it is in
violation of any laws, rules, etc. or just plain
unwanted. We do this for the enjoyment of visiting the
outdoors with the added pleasure of a treasure hunt,
ableit the value is in the enjoyment, not the treasure
itself.

Many of us include our children when we search as it
allows us the opportunity to introduce them to the
great outdoors with an objective. It's a clean,
wholesome activity which can be enjoyed with one's
family. And in these times, anything that the family
can do together is a wonderful thing. And in my case,
my daughter is thrilled when we find the 'treasure'.

I encourage you to share my comments with your group
in order to provide them with a better understanding
of the activity and those who particpiate in it.

Thank you for your time and please let me know if you
have any questions or concerns which I might pass
along to my fellow geocachers.

Matt O'Brien





---------- Forwarded Message ----------

From: "Chapter, Group and Section Outing Leader Discussion List",
INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
TO: (unknown), INTERNET:OA-GC-OUTINGS-LEADERS@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG
DATE: 10/27/2000 10:51 PM

RE: Re: Geostashing


At 1:51 PM -0700 10/27/00, Ann Kramer wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Thanks Owen, I can think of some peakbaggers who merit stashing!
>
>Seriously, what's the difference between the geostashing program outlined
in
>the Times article and leaving a register on top of a peak, so that
>successful climbers can sign in?
>
>Ann Kramer

The register is an historical record, protected by law. The stash is
just junk. It has no purpose other than a game.

Also, we have permission in most places to place registers. It's an
accepted practice.
--
---------------------------------
Owen Maloy
---------------------------------

Mike Teague - http://www.triax.com/yngwie