There is a very simple answer to all of this. submitting caches to both websites ... I said once before that with support from referrer fee's and also sponsors there is no need to charge the public for access. If people wish to copy over their cache page information that belongs to them to www.navicache.com there will NOT be any charge to use that information by another person. ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil R. Ormos To: email@example.com Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [gpsstash] Keeping Geocaching Free!
Dustin Sallings wrote:
> Neil R. Ormos said:
>> What the geocaching community needs in order to avoid the >> potential of extortionate use of monopoly power in >> geocache data is to separate the cache information >> database from the presentation apparatus. If the basic >> cache data (name, owner, location, hints, and any cache >> status/existence update) were separately available on a >> truly non-commercial, collectively-owned, and >> volunteer-operated site, ...
> This has been discussed many times and has gone nowhere. > It's very sad that such trivial information as a place on > earth can be held almost as a trade secret. I may or may > not be able to produce a better site than geocaching.com, > but it's not relevant because the data is so valuable when > people are paying to get it.
Regardless of earlier discussions, the threat of "pay to play", which was merely speculation in the past, is now real. It's time to revisit the issue of a non-commercial database.
>> Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The hobby has >> already been AOL-ized, users have become addicted to the >> spiffy presentation, and it's highly unlikely that users >> can now be persuaded to register caches with a >> non-commercial database, even if someone wanted to go to >> the trouble of setting one up.
> It's not so much AOLization, it's just the lack of public > data. Since I seem to be the only person who created a > site that had any interest in sharing data in the first > place (as far as I can tell), the only one that can > succeed is the one with the most data points. Data > hoarding is exactly what makes this so annoying. I would > like raw access to the data for my own analysis (which I > would share with the world if it's interesting at all).
You blame data hoarding, but it is exactly AOLization that has created the underlying atmosphere in which data hoarding is not only permitted, but thrives. It is exactly the AOL-style users that will suffer any indignity to get a little convenience and spiffy presentation. It is exactly the AOL-style users who are unmotivated or unwilling to contribute their cache information to an independent cache database. It is exactly the AOL-style users who migrated almost all geocaching discussion away from Usenet and relatively unmoderated e-mail groups onto web-based "forums" with their censorship and inane web-based interfaces. And it is exactly the AOL-style users who are unable to understand the risk data hoarding presents to the future of the hobby. Obviously, by "AOLization" I'm not referring to all AOL users or solely to AOL users, but rather to the user community that doesn't understand or value free access to basic data.
> The recent appearance of navicaching.com (well, not *that* > recent) doesn't appear to do a lot. As far as I can tell, > it might as well be geocaching2.com. I keep seeing > messages like, ``Keep Geocaching Free,'' but I don't > understand how another site operating the same way is > helping anything. I see no data export mechanism on the > site, and when I responded to a post here if there were a > way to export the data, I was ignored. Perhaps I just > missed the point.
> It's clear that the only way to maintain the openness of > the activity as it was when it started is to get rid of > all the data hoarding. It's also clear that that's not > going to happen.
If someone would define a simple format for an e-mail message containing the essential cache information, it wouldn't be too hard for individuals to code up descriptions of, say, 10 nearby caches and submit them to the database. You could probably get 85 % coverage of existing caches within six months, which would be a good start.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
The gpsstash page http://www.geocaching.com The GPS Stash Hunt page. http://www.triax.com/~yngwie/gps.html
GeoCache HQ http://www.braveheart.com.au GPS Stash Hunt FAQ : http://www.triax.com/~yngwie/stashfaq.txt To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: firstname.lastname@example.org
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]